The Powers That Be ([personal profile] powersthatbe) wrote in [community profile] synodiporia_ooc2017-08-30 09:48 pm
Entry tags:

(End of) August SOTG

I. Jaunt Vote Results

Our October/November jaunt will be Night Falls on Yensid. There was very little interest expressed on the poll in a walkabout specifically for this jaunt, so we’re presently thinking about not holding one; please let us know ASAP if you think you will need an alternate.

II. Mingle Length

Now that we’ve had most of a jaunt’s worth of 10-day mingles for players to interact with, we’d like to check in with y’all on how you think that pacing works out. Is it too slow to get anything done, too much of an infodump when the mingle finally ticks over, just right? Is there another issue with this pacing that we haven’t thought of?

Jaunt pacing is an eternal struggle to get right, so we’re open to feedback on how best to wrangle mingle length. The one thing we really can’t do is go any longer on mingles than 10 days, as that pushes past the point where movement is necessary to keep people engaged.

III. Skills

The last SOTG generated a vigorous discussion on the nature, size, and comprehensibility of our various skill lists. We’re still feeling out a lot of the possibilities here. At the very least, when we do make new skills in the future we can endeavor to give them clearer and more widespread prerequisite skills - thanks to Fran, Blue, and Thomas making a stats sheet for the Acquired Skills spreadsheet, we have a much better idea of which current skills are the most popular and what makes for logical additions.

Regarding the sheer number of Favor skills, it is worth noting that any given character is only eligible for a small handful - there may be over forty skills on the list, but the vast majority of those are limited by Arcana marks. It’s been suggested that we add a comment index to the Favor skills page, listing what skills a given Mark makes a character eligible for; would you find this a helpful addition?

Other suggestions included the ability to un-take skills or even entire skill trees that a player’s come to regret having their character keep, and expanding the capabilities of existing skills rather than continually adding to the list. We do like the idea of being able to swap out individual skills, but not lopping off an entire line of skills at once, and would love some input on how to best make such a mechanic work. As to the skill lists themselves, the original intent behind their periodic expansions was to ensure no player ran out of skill options, as well as to reward players’ efforts to dig into the inner workings of Liminal Space and the network (that being the effort that brought us the Liminal Energy tree); sometimes expansions to existing skills will be feasible, but other times, we’ll still want to do a rollout of fresh skills.

Finally, another popular suggestion from the last SOTG was to offer new players a free liminal/psychic/combo/favor skill for hitting standard AC during their first jaunt. This would help ease the learning curve that new characters face in comparison to more established characters and give them a chance to catch up. We rather like this suggestion, and plan to implement it with the next app round. We will grandfather this back to the start of the Pogemon Jaunt--any earlier and the character would have been accepted in time for the triple skill month in celebration of the start of Phase Three. A toplevel will be added to the Activity Check page for reporting these skill gains.

IV. IC and OOC Orientation

One of the suggestions we got for helping orient new characters was to have a regular IC psychic post explaining ‘this is what you’ve just found yourself in, here’s what to do now.’ We think that’s a fantastic suggestion, as was the follow-up of not burdening one player with the constant expectation of posting it and instead having a base template that various characters can embellish upon.

To that end: How should we handle sign-ups for posting this IC explanation, and what information needs to be included in it? Something like this has been suggested before by veteran players in the past, and several characters have been willing to ICly contribute to this list in some sort of rotation system. The problem lies in the fact that at the time this was first mentioned, few people were either unwilling or unable to ICly offer up some more important meta details to newcomers, whether it be from OOC business making it difficult or simply the nature of a particular character leading to secrets being held.

This leads to issues such as not knowing what to expect from certain arcana as a newcomer (which arcana are generally seen as friendly, which are bad news, etc.), certain recurring “other” beings rarely being mentioned as being dangerous or important (the Eldritch horrors, the Illuminants, the Familiar Faces, the Starmovers, etc.) Furthermore this makes it difficult for many new players to adapt to scenarios the established players have handled before (see: the current Jaunt). We can easily throw together a Google doc with the basics and make that available to the poster rotation; the posters themselves can work out a bi-monthly rotation. We would be happy to hear your thoughts on this, and what your characters can contribute, if anything, to the cause.

Another suggestion was for a buddy system, with Synodiporia oldbies signing up to be paired with a newbie, whose character they’d thread with and help get used to both liminal space and the Jaunts. We like this idea in principle; we just need to figure out how we’d work it. It seems clear to us that the buddy system would be difficult to formally institute ICly, but it could be possible to work OOCly. If we do it, we might do what Miso suggested and make it volunteer-based where the oldbie volunteers would be put in a pool to be drawn/matched from for newbies who sign up for a buddy. Time zones, general availability, and multiple ways to contact them would be provided for volunteers on both sides--and possibly if they think they’ll be going on the walkabout or the main Jaunt, should the upcoming Jaunt have one. We’d put a new one up each app cycle, because availabilities do change, and link them at the top of the intro mingle.

Yet another suggestion that we as mods are interested in going with would be to have, as part of the plotting post for Jaunts, a sub-thread specifically for new players (and possibly new characters for old players?) where they can let people know they’re looking for people to plot with, so that those new players don’t get lost in the shuffle. Would players be interested in that?

V. Conversation Space

Finally: should Arcana introductions be the first thing that incoming characters thread? On the downside, it often means characters do not know what questions to ask, and when they are asked what the conversation was about, they have to wait until it’s done to answer, and with the mod team busy, that sometimes takes a month. On the other hand, is there a more sensible, intuitive time? Intro mingles happen after apps have closed and before a Jaunt begins - the least busy time in our modwork cycle, and the most regular, memorable moment so that we can make sure everyone gets their thread. Likewise, certain facets of the game exposition are most easily delivered up-front, before anything else happens. Before deciding on this, we’d like to hear more player feedback. Right now, the alternatives we are proposing are:

1) keep the conversation space timing as it is.

2) a conversation in the moment of time after an intro mingle and before a Jaunt (as early, regular, and low-mod-activity as possible, while not keeping players held up in their initial CR threads & giving them time to formulate questions). This has the added virtue of happening right before players are occupied by the immediate concerns of a Jaunt, so if the conversation takes all Jaunt to thread, it’s still natural that they might be kept busy with no chance to discuss it (especially if they infiltrate) until they get back into Liminal Space.

3) Give every incoming character a token they can spend at the time of their choosing to have the Arcana conversation when they are ready for it. This lets players time the conversation as they like, but the timing may be awkward for the mods, and while it lets the new characters ask their questions strategically, kind of like the World Series did, it’s actually got more player utility than what veteran characters have had - this can be bad, if players find it unfair, or good, as it gives new players a better way to take an active, important role in metaplot, which is one of the problems we’re trying to solve.

Your thoughts, critique, and patience are, as always, appreciated. Right now, we’re just discussing these options, but when we’ve heard your feedback and worked out the new possibilities, we can post a poll and put it to a vote.

VI. New Business

Did we miss something? Is there a new wrinkle in the land of Synodiporia that needs to be brought to our attention? Please let us know!

I. Jaunt Vote Results

[personal profile] powersthatare 2017-08-31 04:49 am (UTC)(link)

II. Mingle Length

[personal profile] powersthatare 2017-08-31 04:50 am (UTC)(link)
professorwolf: (Default)

[personal profile] professorwolf 2017-08-31 05:35 am (UTC)(link)
The current mingle length is working really well for me. I don't wind up feeling nearly as behind as I have in previous Jaunts even if it takes me a few days to get up top-levels :) So I like this length a lot.
tobegood: (angry)

[personal profile] tobegood 2017-08-31 05:38 am (UTC)(link)
I like the 10 day mingle length a lot better, it's much easier not to fall behind.

(I mean, I did anyway, but there won't be an eclipse every month.)
comebewe: PB: Alex Price (Default)

[personal profile] comebewe 2017-08-31 05:51 am (UTC)(link)
I do actually prefer the old 7 day length, since I tend to find that I do get to point where a lot of my threads have wound down and I'm kind of impatiently waiting for the next one. But admittedly I may also be one of the faster taggers, so I may be a minority here, idk.

One thing that I do wonder about though, is how to treat mingles that fall on a date right near the end of the month? Since it does seem to be the trend that you end up with a good majority of people just waiting for the month to tick over before replying to those mingles, so that their tags count for the next month's AC. Maybe when plotting the jaunt calendars, how close a mingle falls to the end of the month should be factored in?
helborn: (Default)

[personal profile] helborn 2017-08-31 06:08 am (UTC)(link)
Agreed with the 'please factor into calendars the AC period' thing.

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claudiometer: looking up from a case file (o rly?)

[personal profile] claudiometer 2017-08-31 08:40 pm (UTC)(link)
While I haven't been on the jaunt, the walkabout's reflecting the 10-day pace as well, and I have seen the jaunt mingles in progress. I can say the 10-day mingle pace is a little more relaxed, but I don't know how well I'd like it for a jaunt; I'd have to be on a proper jaunt at this speed to say for certain.

It feels to me like it's resulting in some seriously infodump-y mingles, but I don't know how much of that is 'mingle pace means pushing more information out in fewer posts' and how much is 'Matt has a lot of ideas for how Harrogate do.'
loyalrebel: (sneaky hood things)

Re: II. Mingle Length

[personal profile] loyalrebel 2017-08-31 10:42 pm (UTC)(link)
I also prefer the 7 day length, I've found it harder to keep track of things with the shift to 10 days because of how my week is generally structured. I've also felt like it's increased the length of what feels like "oh we should/need to wait until the next mingle" to do something.

On the other hand, I can understand it being something useful/great for other jaunts and that it's something people besides me like because it gives them more time.

I think it might be good for something to be put for a vote when the jaunt is decided or otherwise a case-by-case basis.
Edited 2017-08-31 22:44 (UTC)
bite_the_hand: (Default)

Re: II. Mingle Length

[personal profile] bite_the_hand 2017-09-06 05:48 am (UTC)(link)
I'm definitely preferring the ten day mingle length, myself. It feels like I'm actually making progress towards catching up for the first time in forever instead of just perpetually falling farther behind. Although I am admittedly one of the slower taggers here.

I will say, however, that the mingles on the Jaunt have felt really info-dump heavy. I'm not sure that's because of the change in mingle frequency though? It's certainly contributing to it, but the primary factor might just be because this is freaking Harrogate and it'd likely be one of the more intense and info-dense Jaunts anyway. At the very least I think it's worth seeing how the 10-day cycle does on a more chill Jaunt before making a any kind of decision. Heck, it might turn out that which one is better varies based on the style of the Jaunt itself?

Re: II. Mingle Length

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III. Skills

[personal profile] powersthatare 2017-08-31 04:51 am (UTC)(link)

IV. IC and OOC Orientation

[personal profile] powersthatare 2017-08-31 04:52 am (UTC)(link)
claudiometer: eyeing a door (those pesky doors)

[personal profile] claudiometer 2017-08-31 05:16 am (UTC)(link)
With its 'owner' no longer present to do the inviting himself, one of the things that needs to be in an IC orientation is the existence of the workshop and how taking a room there works. Claudia took it upon herself to make one such announcement, but otherwise there's no real way for people to find out except by chance, and that's not how Leo would want it.

There should also be more than one way to distribute this information - the original pamphlet would work well, especially now that there are so many physical spaces/people with the Xerox cantrip, as a counterpoint to 'why is there a voice in my head telling me things,' but other people may absorb a psychic message better than reading material.

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theflyingone: find waldo (Default)

Re: IV. IC and OOC Orientation

[personal profile] theflyingone 2017-09-06 09:17 am (UTC)(link)
One small problem with a subthread is that when i hit "top-level comments only" on the plotting post to get a neat list of plotters, i'd have to expand the header for newbies (and allll the nested comments within), negating that convenience. It's hell on a phone. Also, we have the hazard of people posting under the wrong header. I've done this before.

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V. Conversation Space

[personal profile] powersthatare 2017-08-31 04:52 am (UTC)(link)
helborn: (Default)

[personal profile] helborn 2017-08-31 04:59 am (UTC)(link)
I like option two for the conversation spaces, as it allows the mods to step down from modwork a bit and allows characters to get acclimated without putting too much of a stress on either.

In addition, it's often quite frustrating to do the arcana threads in general - I'm aware that the mods have a great deal to do and I appreciate it. However, no character of mine has ever gotten close to a completed thread (I first came in on the Pogemon Jaunt) and it's difficult to talk to other characters ICly about it given that we don't know how the thread goes. Generally I handwave it with "they weren't very helpful", but this seems somewhat unsatisfying. Is there a way that these threads can get either flagged as higher priority or somehow assisted by other mods?

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claudiometer: text: hey, can someone cover for me while I go chuck a nuke in a wormhole? (end *all* the worlds?)

[personal profile] claudiometer 2017-08-31 05:18 am (UTC)(link)
As the only mod not playing Arcana and a player unlikely to do another app, I like option two the best. It gives new characters a chance to learn something about what's going on, while allowing padding for not having to answer questions about their Arcana conversation/the mental state it left them in right away.

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comebewe: PB: Alex Price (Default)

[personal profile] comebewe 2017-08-31 05:58 am (UTC)(link)
I'm good with either option 2 or 3. For option 3, I don't find it at all unfair - by sheer virtue of having been in the game for a while, I've had plenty of opportunities to get involved in the metaplot. I don't see any problem with giving new characters a leg up in that regards.

Awkward timing for mods is an important thing to consider, though. If option three is more difficult to implement on the mod side of things, then I think option 2 is the way to go.
rustyhonesty: (I'm telling you)

[personal profile] rustyhonesty 2017-08-31 06:11 am (UTC)(link)
I would prefer option two myself.
bite_the_hand: (25)

[personal profile] bite_the_hand 2017-08-31 06:15 am (UTC)(link)
Prefacing this with a disclaimer that I haven't apped anyone new since before Phase III started and I might have missed some aspects of the problem, but option two seems like a good compromise to me. That way the new characters already have the answers to the basic questions instead of everyone needing to ask the Arcana those questions every single time, and they can skip straight to the questions that are much more likely to effect the threads in the future. Heck, the Arcana getting tired of answering the exact same basic questions over and over again could even work as an IC reason for the change. This also gives the added bonus of encouraging CR with the veterans, because then the new characters would have to ask the vets all of those basic questions instead. And option two still gives them a chance to dig into the metaplot more, since there's a good chance they might stumble across a question a vet can't actually answer, or they can ask for suggestions on what they should talk to their Arcana about, etc.. Not to mention it lets people play around with their intros a bit more? I know when I apped Eren here I had a lot of fun with dropping a confused Titan into Liminal Space directly from the middle of a battle, but that's an intro I wouldn't have been able to justify if he had to hit Conversation Space and yell at an Arcana first. It also has the benefit of something that's regular, controlled, and can easily be planned around.

A lack of that control and structure is why I find option three to be the most concerning. Thinking about the kind of behind-the-scenes tracking and list keeping that it seems like it would require would be enough of a nightmare to make me cringe, plus it'd be opening things up for the mods to get hit with a random curve ball at any given moment. Which comes with the risk of needing to choose between responding to Arcana tags promptly or keeping the current Jaunt on track, should a small group of characters all attempt to cash in their tokens at once when the mods are already busy trying to write the new mingle. Maybe the biggest problems with three could be fixed by placing a restriction on redeeming the tokens? Such as only allowing characters to redeem them when it's between Jaunts, perhaps? But even then three is still the option I like the least.
overlevende: (Default)

Re: V. Conversation Space

[personal profile] overlevende 2017-08-31 08:32 am (UTC)(link)
On the one hand I vote TWO, on the other hand I'm seconding Matt's experience. I was lucky with my first character, but my second and third had little relevant information by the end of the following jaunt. So I feel like the best would be to offer some kind of summary option in addition to threading if the thread hasn't gotten much traffic by the end of a certain timeframe (three weeks or something). Probably in form of a plurk between mod and player punching out the cornerstones of what would be asked/answered and such.

Re: V. Conversation Space

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Re: V. Conversation Space

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triggerhappytraitor: (Giant Dork Moment)

[personal profile] triggerhappytraitor 2017-08-31 12:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Going to vote for 2 as well. It really feels like a very common problem that Arcana threads are often slower than glacier movement. It's not a problem of any specific or single mod, but an across board issue, which implies that there is a base problem behind it (likely part of the whole "there is so much" and Arcana tags falling into the bottom of the inbox abyss of being a chore rather than being a fun thing.) Of the 4 Arcana encounters had so far, one fizzed out after delays between tags pushed it over 4 months long (any new info gotten at that point would have required reconning), another ended swiftly after a month long delay, another had tags slowed to once a week and then was dropped, and another was hand waved. Almost no information was gotten from these threads (very, very minimal info was given in the World Series thread) and how slow they moved wound up causing problems with other, more active threads to the point where I just had to assume nothing information wise would have been given just so I could have my character acknowledge that they had happened without having to vague up the convo and gloss the content. I can only imagine how devastating that has to be for a newbie to be told "hey, here's your intro to the game, just for you!" and then be left in the cold after, just how psyched I was for the first Arcana encounter, only to have it be a long, slow, functionally empty thread. (Disclaimer, it was with the living shrug, but not having any idea anything about said living shrug, it did leave some unhappy feelings that only grew worse as the thread slowly slugged on into the sunset.)

Also, going to add a note that seriously, give newbies a leg up. Newbies will never catch up to the older characters in terms of information, skills or opportunities (it's just not physically possible, honestly) so anything to give them a boost or bonus to be able to feel like they can contribute something to the meta plot would be fantastic. Even with a year of game time under my belt, it feels like there's layers to this game that my character will never have a chance to get into just because he's still playing catch up. Something that gives newbies a glimmer of something to chase after that's new that doesn't require (or feel like it requires) a boat load of experience and skills to go after would be a very good way of helping attract, engage and keep newbies. (Which, it doesn't seem like Syn does a very good job of, overall. MMO/old game syndrome.)
theflyingone: find waldo (Default)

Re: V. Conversation Space

[personal profile] theflyingone 2017-09-06 09:30 am (UTC)(link)
Voting for 2! I often push more important Liminal threads towards the end of the mingle/just before the Jaunt where i can anyway, for the aforementioned reason of "they might be kept busy with no chance to discuss it (especially if they infiltrate)". For example, I've found that when I do a CR-important Dungeon as one of my last Liminal threads, Altair's state when he emerges doesn't have to affect or hold up the Liminal threads before it.

VI. New Business

[personal profile] powersthatare 2017-08-31 04:52 am (UTC)(link)
comebewe: PB: Alex Price (Default)

[personal profile] comebewe 2017-08-31 05:26 am (UTC)(link)
Just one random little suggestion - for the OOC comm, I was thinking that something that could be useful is adding jaunt tags to all of the plotting posts for that particular jaunt. Just because I know for myself at least, there have been times where I've wanted to find something mentioned in one of them, usually something like an answer from one of the mods. But, unless that question was asked on the initial plotting post, I've found that it can be really hard to dig that up. We already have jaunt tags for IC posts, so, why not ones for ooc posts as well?

It could also even make things easier even when you're just trying to find past plotting posts for the current jaunt, as sometimes even they can get a bit lost in amongst other various ooc posts, like ones for the other side of the jauntabout or AC check ins or whatever else has been going on.

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rustyhonesty: (Default)

[personal profile] rustyhonesty 2017-09-01 05:26 am (UTC)(link)
Please add a notice of "Daylight Savings" on the AC when it's applicable. Some of us were sure it's still 11 pm when it was already past midnight here which got confusing and messed with the end of AC.

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